‘Rounders’ Live From New York With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan
February 27, 2024 · Rounders (1998) · Crime · Drama · 1:35:26 · ▶ Listen on Spotify
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Most Rewatchable Scene
Bill Simmons▶ 21:28Opens the category with Teddy KGB crushing Mike in the opening hand ('Want a cookie?' / 'They all know me as a small timer... but that's about to change' / three stacks of high society) as the first most-rewatchable scene.
Chris Ryan▶ 22:00Discussed the opening scene — loves that Koppelman invented 'three stacks of high society' at the last minute (it was going to be 'three big dimes') and it entered the real poker lexicon; states no pick of his own in this window (his pick, the last Teddy KGB hand, comes later in the episode).
Van Lathan▶ 21:44Joined the opening-scene discussion by reciting the 'they all know me as a small timer' narration; his own pick (the final scene) comes later in the episode.
Probably Unanswerable Questions
Bill Simmons▶ 23:49Framed the question of Mike's opening all-in: he fucks up and realizes it later, but the movie shows why he was that confident (the Johnny Chan night); also celebrates the Matt Damon 'I just got my ass kicked' face as the best ever.
Bill Simmons▶ 1:27:18Ran the questions and answered several: Teddy KGB had two aces in the final hand (the 'ace did not help you' line gives it away); Worm went 'more like Providence' after Binghamton (and relays the cut scene of Worm at a Bronx backroom game); Mike got to $60K via off-screen doubling-up they didn't show to avoid getting 'too pokery'
Chris Ryan▶ 23:53Explained why Mike was 'full of gas' going all-in against KGB — because of the Johnny Chan hand; compared the aftermath face to Zay Flowers.
Chris Ryan▶ 1:27:44Posed 'Knish: good friend or loan shark?' and argued Knish's friendship always carries a price tag (50% stake or drive a truck); guessed Worm went to Boston ('ex-convict with no money, a bloody face, no cell phone — sounds like Boston'); for which actor could play all five male parts, (as attributed) answered Paul Newman for a real movie and Philip Seymour Hoffman for the one he'd want to see
Van Lathan▶ 24:18It's weird Mike staked everything on one good night against Johnny Chan — like busting a pro while hooping at Equinox and then trying out for the Lakers: 'he had one good night and then basically cut his dick off in front of the whole world... it's what he deserved,' which tells you what Mike thinks about himself.
Van Lathan▶ 1:29:52Certain Jo never gave Petrovsky the money — 'she was the rake' the whole movie, probably partying in Cancun; and Knish is the safe, low-ceiling example of exactly what Mike and Worm don't want to become
What's Aged the Best
Bill Simmons▶ 43:47The movie's lasting legs — his early ESPN Page 2 Rounders-quotes awards gimmick blew up pre-Twitter, proving the cult following; the name Johnny Chan being a real back-to-back WSOP champ; the Buckner line (a Koppelman shot at Red Sox fans); the 'every player remembers the tough beats' narration being true; and Mike going to the WSOP making far more sense in 2024 than in 1998.
Chris Ryan▶ 43:19The guy-getting-out-of-jail-and-getting-his-stuff-back scene — never fails, should be an endless YouTube montage.
Van Lathan▶ 45:05No pick in this window — engaged on whether Matt Damon (a Red Sox guy) came up with the Buckner joke (Bill credits Koppelman) and on the athlete-cameo tangent (Space Jam, Brett Favre); his own aged-best pick (the Russian mob) fell just before this window.
Big Kahuna Burger Award
Bill Simmons▶ 48:56The Oreos — 'it's got to be the Oreos, right? I don't know if Oreos have ever been more involved' (Teddy KGB's Oreo tell).
Chris Ryan▶ 49:02Agreed on the Oreos; runner-up: the hot dog and the amount of soy sauce Worm puts in his noodles.
Den of Thieves Benihana Award
Bill Simmons▶ 49:13Grandma's brothel (the red-drenched brothel location) — stated immediately after posing the category.
Van Lathan▶ 49:29Endorsed Grandma's brothel — what he likes is the attainability of the women inside: 'you go in Grandma's brothel, you're like, that was casted correctly.'
Butch's Girlfriend Award
Bill Simmons▶ 54:59The Petra scene — Mike pulling back from the six-foot drop-dead-gorgeous Russian throwing herself at him is 'the most unrealistic scene' (Koppelman and Levine later called it probably the biggest mistake of their entire career); ties it to the wet-blanket sports-movie-girlfriend legacy (Adrian in Rocky IV, Ned Braden's wife in Slap Shot, the Hoosiers lady), plus the biggest reach: Petrovsky handing beat-up law-school-dropout Mike $10,000.
Chris Ryan▶ 58:32Played devil's advocate for Gretchen Mol's Jo — she's not shrill and uses poker logic against Mike ('I'm cutting my losses') — arguing Worm is the film's real romantic lead and femme fatale ('it's a noir'); also offered Vincent Chase-style doubts (was Worm even a good card cheat? are Mike and Teddy bad at poker?) and noted the movie hasn't fared well with 20 years of poker Reddit.
Van Lathan▶ 53:13Mike rejecting Petra is unbearable ('It's right there for you, Mike. What are you thinking, bruh?'), and Gretchen Mol's Jo is 'so fucking annoying in this movie... unbearable' — the passive-aggressive, furniture-taking girlfriend is the weak link.
Is There a Better Title?
Chris Ryan▶ 1:04:13"Brokeback Rounders" (said as 'Broke backgrounders', a Brokeback Mountain pun on the Mike/Worm relationship)
Van Lathan▶ 1:02:28"Leave That Bitch, Mike" (he specifies it's with the comma); he holds a second title back until later in the show
Stephen A. Smith Hottest Take Award
Chris Ryan▶ 1:05:53Joked that Worm ('a guy who dresses like Serpico, eats hot dogs and never sleeps') is actually Kaiser Soze; then (as attributed) the take that the biggest winner of the movie is ESPN, which parlayed Rounders' poker boom into years of World Series of Poker programming
Van Lathan▶ 1:05:34His Cape Fear theory: Rounders is secretly a Cape Fear sequel — Worm spent jail plotting revenge and deliberately sabotages Mike's whole life (window opens on him closing it with 'That's my hottest take')
Casting What-Ifs
Bill Simmons▶ 1:07:09Phil Hellmuth was supposed to play the Johnny Chan role ('Thank God' it didn't happen, though people would enjoy seeing Hellmuth get his ass kicked); Neve Campbell (red hot off Party of Five/Scream/Wild Things) turned down the role of Jo; Recasting Couch: Phil Ivey is the Johnny Chan of 2024
Chris Ryan▶ 1:07:19Rejected the Hellmuth what-if — 'Johnny Chan's elite in this movie' — and riffed that tilt-prone Hellmuth would have flipped out at the 'I don't remember' line; no alternate casting of his own
Half-Assed Internet Research
Bill Simmons▶ 1:13:06Koppelman & Levine wrote Rounders (their first script together) in an apartment building's basement storage room Koppelman's wife cleaned out; law-school scenes filmed at Rutgers; Malkovich built the accent by listening to a Russian woman for hours; Damon and Norton played the '98 WSOP, where Doyle Brunson's pocket aces knocked out Damon's pocket kings on day one
Apex Mountain
Bill Simmons▶ 1:14:13Rounders is apex for nobody in it: Damon's apex is the first Bourne, Norton's is Fight Club, Malkovich's is Being John Malkovich ('the name of the movie after him'), Famke Janssen's is Jean Grey in X-Men/X2, and Johnny Chan's is his back-to-back World Series of Poker titles rather than this movie
Chris Ryan▶ 1:15:09Engaged the name-by-name debate without a distinct pick of his own: questioned whether Rounders is Norton's apex, endorsed the crowd's 'Oreos' shout as a good apex call, and joked Johnny Chan's apex was 'getting housed by Mike McD at the end of Rounders'
Racehorse Name Award
Bill Simmons▶ 1:16:07"The Rake" — chosen from his nominees Teddy KGB, Mike McD, Rounder, and The Rake
Is This Movie Better With
Bill Simmons▶ 1:24:50Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Catherine Hahn, Steve Buscemi, Michael K. Williams, Sam Jackson, JT Walsh, Byron Mayo, Harling Mays, or Philip Baker Hall
Chris Ryan▶ 1:25:08Chris Ryan primarily focused on Byron Mayo, imagining a scenario where he exposes Worm's cheating. He also suggested Paul Newman and Philip Seymour Hoffman as actors who could play multiple roles in the movie.
Best Double Feature
Bill Simmons▶ 1:32:15Cape Fear — 'I'm going with Van's idea of Cape Fear. Let's get dark.' (also volunteers that he hates the standard California Split pairing)
Van Lathan▶ 1:31:43Fight Club — Rounders is 'almost a reverse Fight Club,' with Norton playing the actual incarnation of Tyler Durden, 'the Tyler Durden of poker'
Who Won the Movie
Bill Simmons▶ 1:34:00Ed Norton — 'I have poker one and Ed Norton too... Worm is such a good character and he's so good in it, so I think I would go for him' (Worm is the soul of the movie)
Chris Ryan▶ 1:33:14Koppelman and Levine — a 'unicorn script' with incredible dialogue all the way through; no one but Norton could have played Worm
Van Lathan▶ 1:33:34Poker — the movie 'makes poker feel like the coolest thing in the world to know about' (and New York with it)
Movies Referenced (48)
American History X (1998)
5 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Van Lathan▶ 13:56IMDb ↗Lb ↗
John Wick (2014)
5 mentions · Van Lathan, Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan▶ 5:25IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Directors Referenced (3)
Ben Affleck
3 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan · Known for Argo, Gone Girl, The Town▶ 14:26IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Clint Eastwood
1 mentions · Van Lathan · Known for Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, Unforgiven▶ 28:17IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Actors Referenced (61)
Matt Damon
29 mentions · Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, Chris Ryan · Known for Good Will Hunting, The Martian, The Departed▶ 3:07IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Edward Norton
27 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Van Lathan · Known for Fight Club, American History X, Primal Fear▶ 3:07IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Johnny Chan
17 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Van Lathan · Known for Rounders, Lucky You▶ 13:18IMDb ↗Lb ↗
David Levine
11 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan · Known for The Ice Storm▶ 17:25IMDb ↗Lb ↗
John Malkovich
11 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan · Known for In the Line of Fire, Being John Malkovich, Burn After Reading▶ 3:07IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Jim Carrey
7 mentions · Chris Ryan, Bill Simmons · Known for Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, Bruce Almighty, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind▶ 15:19IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Michael Rispoli
4 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan · Known for Kick-Ass▶ 35:27IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Dan Marino
3 mentions · Bill Simmons · Known for Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, Any Given Sunday, Bad Boys II▶ 48:37IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Larry Bird
3 mentions · Bill Simmons · Known for Space Jam, Celtic Pride, Blue Chips▶ 48:29IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Martin Landau
3 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan · Known for Ed Wood, Crimes and Misdemeanors, North by Northwest▶ 3:07IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Mike Tyson
3 mentions · Bill Simmons · Known for The Hangover▶ 48:32IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Writers Referenced (4)
Brian Koppelman
9 mentions · Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Van Lathan · Known for Runaway Jury, Runner Runner, Michael Clayton▶ 22:07IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Danny McBride
2 mentions · Bill Simmons · Known for Underworld▶ 33:29IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Michael Cedeno
1 mentions · Bill Simmons · Known for Hercules, Treasure Planet▶ 48:02IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Cinematographers Referenced (2)
Lotfi El Gorda
1 mentions · Chris Ryan · Known for Aquaman, Noah▶ 49:49IMDb ↗Lb ↗
Richard Staff
1 mentions · Van Lathan · Known for Doctor Strange, Fast X, The Thursday Murder Club▶ 26:51IMDb ↗Lb ↗